国外网民讨论：在中国有多少英语学习者？

国外网民讨论：在中国有多少英语学习者？ 国外网民讨论:在中国有多少英语学习者, How many English learners in China? 译文简介: 亲历中国红，一位美国老师在其博客中提出了一个极具煽动性的观点。或许有3亿中国人正 在学习或学过英语，在这一令人振奋的数字背后却是存在一个令人苦恼的现实问题。 译文来源: 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael 正文翻译: Sep 1st 2011, 17:55 by R.L.G. | NEW YORK From: SEEING Red in China, a blog by an American teacher there, makes a provocative argument. Behind the eye-catching number that 300m people either are learning or have learned English in China is a depressing reality. Classes are extremely poor, the teachers themselves not fluent in English. Rote memorisation is the norm—a fact Tom, the blogger, buttresses with his own experience of reading Chinese texts out loud, for hours every day, at Beijing's specialist university for foreign languages. He says he was never once asked to produce his own sentences. Shocking if true. By the by, he makes another provocative point: that rural literacy in Chinese (not English) is in fact far worse than authorities say. Farmers simply don't use the written language enough to maintain their knowledge of thousands of characters. I don't have anything like the experience to judge, but Victor Mair, who does and who passed it on to me, believes it rings quite true. Any Sinophones or Sinophiles in the audience care to comment or disagree? 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael 亲历中国红，一位美国老师在其博客中提出了一个极具煽动性的观点。或许有3亿中国人正 在学习或学过英语，在这一令人振奋的数字背后却是存在一个令人苦恼的现实问题。校舍极 为破旧，师资力量薄弱(老师自己的英语也不是很流利)。死记硬背是教学常态。博主Tom 在谈到其在北外的学习经历说:成天就是大声朗读课文，一天要好几个小时。从未有机会能 用句子表达(自己)的意思。如果这一切都是真实情况，这样教与学真是太令人吃惊了。 顺便提一下，他又写了另一个挑衅性的观点:中国农村人的文化(非英文)其实比当局说的 要差远了。农民不使用书面语言，不足以长期的维持他们的仅有几千个单词的知识。 我没有任何这样的经验去判断它的真实性，但Victor Mair有这样的经历并把它告诉我，相 信它应该是十分真实的。 评论翻译: Readers' comments 读者评论 L.Y.Z. wrote: Sep 1st 2011 7:37 GMT Taking into account the difference between the Chinese and the English languages and their characteristics, there is any surprise to take notice of the poor expertise from the Chinese learner on English. And for sure, the expertise the westerners will show off on the Chinese language will not be much better. For the same cause... 考虑到汉语和英语语言的不同和他们自己的各自特点，对这个关于写中国的英语初学者在英 语方面差劲的文章会有些惊讶。 而且可以肯定，英语上专业的西方人在卖弄汉语水平时也不见的会要好得多。出于同样的原 因... ... 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael New Conservative wrote: Sep 1st 2011 6:24 GMT You misconstrue his statement. I don't think the statements on rural illiteracy are true anymore. The statistics he cites are from the 50's and 60's. 你误解了他话的意思。我认为那关于乡村文学的说法不符合现在的实际情况。他引用的数据 都是50或60年代的。 Nowadays, even the most rural areas have televisions and televisions always, always are subtitled. This means that rural residents are generally reading constantly while the TV is on. Moreso, if they have a strong accent and have trouble understanding standard mandarin. 现在，即使在最贫困的山区都有电视，而且现在的电视节目往往是带字幕的。这也就意味着 农民兄弟在看电视时也不停的在阅读。因为往往他们说话都带很重的口音还有他们很难听懂 普通话。 The thing about memorization is true. 但是关于死记硬背这一说到是真实情况。 NateKoppel wrote: Sep 1st 2011 6:51 GMT Having taught English in a Kunming business college for a year, I can say that, at least among young people, the general ability to speak and write English exists. Most, though by no means all, of my my students coped well enough with my writing prompts that I gave them, on subjects from movies to economics--In fact, I once presented them with an article on protectionism in China (from the Economist!) and despite its difficulty, they generally responded to my question on whether China ought to use protectionism quite ably. Incidentally, many of them were in favor of its use in China, arguing that as a poorer nation, China ought to be able to use protectionism despite its unsavory characteristics. 在昆明商贸学院教了一年英语，我敢说，大多数年轻人还是能说点写点英语的。大多数我的 学生，当然不是全部，他们完全有能力应付我给他们命题的写作，从电影评论到经济领域都 行。事实上，一次我让他们阅读一篇摘自贵刊的关于中国贸易保护主义的文章，不说文章的 难度，他们大都反问我中国是否应该采取贸易保护主义。还有顺便说一下，他们大都赞成这 一做法，并且争辩说作为一个发展中国家，虽然可能有损于中国的名誉，但采取贸易保护主 义还是必要的。 sweatshop fan wrote: Sep 1st 2011 9:17 GMT As I'm sure you (Johnson) know, learning language requires different talents and abilities. Some people seem to have a talent for mimicry which allows them to reproduce the sounds of a foreign language more accurately than others, some have a talent for memorizing lots of words and/or grammatical rules, some have neither, some have both. I have tutored an 8 year old super rich Chinese kid whose father could barely speak intelligible Mandarin, he had private native speaker tutors his whole life, and his English was still terrible (might have been due to ADD). I have taught a girl whose only exposure to English was through kids' DVD software training and kindergarten who could speak nearly fluently with no accent. 我确信Johnson你清楚，学习语言是需要有天赋的。有些人有模仿的天赋，这是他们在学习 外语时发音要比别人更准;有些人有记忆大量单词和语法的天赋;有些人两种天赋兼有，而 有些人却两种天赋都没有。我就教过一个8岁的超级富二代中国孩子，他父亲几乎连普通话 都说不好，英语也很糟糕，而且他找了好几个说本地话的私人助理。我还教过一个女孩子， 她学习英语的唯一途径就是通过看(原版)动画片，她在幼儿园里说英语十分流利而且不带 任何口音。 This kind of variance of course applies to native languages as well. Rural reading ability isn't great, especially among the older generation, but among the younger people, I would say most can get by with what knowledge of Chinese they have, though I can't speak for the poorest/most rural of the rural poor, as I rarely asked them how much they could read. 学习汉语也会出现这种情况。阅读能力不一定很强，这种情况尤其是在老年人中较为多见。 而在年轻人中，我敢说他们中大多数可以通过学过的汉语知识来解决这些问题，这不是在帮 贫困山区(未受教育)的人说话，但我真的很少问他们到底识多少字。 You only need to know 1-2000 characters to get by, the rest only if you want to study literature or history. Because the writing system has changed so little over the years, I would venture that far more Chinese farmers can read and understand Confucius than Americans can read and understand Chaucer. And for those who don't know, Confucius lived almost 2000 years before Chaucer. 刚开始，你只要识2000个汉字就可以了，剩下的就是要决定你到底想学什么，是文学呢还是 历史,因为文体在过去这么多年里变化比较小。我敢说中国农民对孔子学说的理解要强于美 国人对乔叟(诗歌)的理解。要知道，孔子那时代要比乔叟早大约2000年呢。 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael Strictly speaking wrote: Sep 2nd 2011 7:28 GMT I spent many years in China, including two years in an industrial town in northern china having 4-6 hours per day of 1-on-1 mandarin classes. Some thoughts: 我在中国待了许多年，有两年是在中国北方的一个工业中心。每天花4-6小时通过1对1的 教学学习汉语。以下是我的一些体会: 1. Very few native mainland Chinese speak good English. Even taking 1% of the 300 million cited in the article might be optimistic. These are mostly concentrated in places like Shanghai and Beijing. 中国大陆很少有人英语说的好的。文中提到的那3亿人中要是有1%英语说的好的话已经算是 乐观的了。这些人大多住在上海或北京这些地方。 2. In most cases, English teaching really is a case of the blind leading the blind. Native Chinese English teachers often have a poor command of the language and awful pronounciation. (foreign teachers often have so-so English and not much training in teaching.) 通常，教英语的都是误人子弟。中国本土的英语教师通常自己英语都掌握的不好而且发音也 很糟糕。(外籍英语老师通常英语还行，但是并没有接受过系统教育方面的培训。) 4. To illustrate: I lived for years in a provincial capital, and in those days, it took me 6 months before I saw white person on the street. So it's really hard to practise your English with foreigners. Some universities organize weekly "English corners", places where keen learners congregate at a set time and only speak English to each other. But again, it's usually a whole of lot Chinese students practising their broken English with one another. (You really have to admire the enthusiasm and perseverence.) 举个例子，我在省会城市待过几年，那时候，我要6个月才能在街上碰到白人。所以想同老 外练习你的英语还是有难度的。一些大学内每周组织英语角，英语学习爱好者每周都会在一 固定的时间在那里互相练习英语(口语)。还是不得不说，通常大多数中国学生都是互相练习 蹩脚的英语。 (不得不佩服他们的热情和毅力) 5. Beyond the small cohort of reasonably fluent speakers, there's a large host of people with a smattering of English, often in service jobs that have interaction with foreigners (hotels, tourist sites, tour operators, restaurants, etc). 除了一小撮英语还说的相对流利的人，还有一大部分都是略懂一二的家伙(这些人大多从事 服务行业的工作，在工作中同老外有过接触，如酒店，旅游景点，旅行社操作还有餐馆的服 务人员。 6. Most people have forgotten the English they learnt at school completely, and only know one or two words (hello, thank you, good are common favourites) 大多数人早就把在学校学的英语抛到九霄云外了，脑子里也就只剩下一两个单词(如你好， 谢谢，不错这些常用语了) Hamakko wrote: Sep 1st 2011 8:32 GMT Let me share one other experience that may be relevant. Shortly after I arrived in Japan, I was watching a reputable Japanese educational TV show on speaking English. It featured a group of young Americans acting parts, with the English dialog spelled out as a subtitle. At one point, a young man turned to a young lady and said 'Say, I'm gonna go to the movies tonight; you wanna come?' Yes... that's exactly how the subtitles spelled it out, presenting it as standard English. I cringed. 允许我和大家分享另一段相关的经历吧。在我刚到日本不久，我看了一个知名的日本英语口 语电视教学节目。其中穿插了一部分年轻美国人表演的部分(通过英语对话并带有字幕)，很 有特色。其中有一段，一个男青年对一位女青年说:“你好，今晚我想去看电影，你愿意去吗,” 字幕也原封不动的把这句话打了出来，并标榜为英语正式用语。 很难恭维啊。 Doghouse O Reilly wrote: Sep 1st 2011 8:08 GMT I was going to offer the Japanese comparison, too. Wrote learning, incompetent teachers, native speakers used as walking loudspeakers, all sounds exactly like what I have heard of from Japan (albeit with no direct experience). However, I thought that it was generally held that Chinese in business spoke much better English than the vast majority of their Japanese counterparts. Wasn't there a Japanese prime minister who had been an English teacher at some point in his career, yet spoke no English? 我也想拿日本做个比较。死读书，不称职的师资，把说本国语言的人当作活喇叭„„这些都 是我听别人说(本人没有切身经历) 但是，我认为通常来说在生意场上中国人的英语要比对手公司的日本人说的好些。有在其职 业生涯某段时间内做过英语老师的日本首相吗, Crispus_A wrote: Sep 2nd 2011 1:14 GMT After reading Tom's blog post, I can only say he is a truth teller. 看了Tom的博客，我得说他说的是实话。 In the eight years I taught Accounting and other business courses, in China, I came to the same point as Tom. 我在中国教会计还有其他商务课程近八年时间，我和Tom的看法一样。 Teaching English on the scale being attempted in China produces relatively few people fluent in English. It is a waster of time, money and educational resources. Most teachers of English in China, foreign or local, are quite poor. A Russian was assigned to teach English, and as an intelligent man, he was dumbfounded. An email from an American teaching English, was filled with spelling, grammar and syntax errors, and no words capitalized. In my reply I sarcastically, said, "you must be an English teacher." It seems that 'casual' English is the norm between Native English Speakers these days, and, I was rude to expect proper written English. 中国英语教育法只培养出了极少数英语流利的人才。这种方法显然是在浪费时间，金钱还有 教育资源。在中国大多数的英语老师，无论是外籍的还是本土的，水平都很差。就连俄罗斯 人也请来教英语，还弄的别人一愣一愣的。从美国请来的英语老师写的电邮里都是拼写，语 法还有句法错误，也不知道哪些词该大写。我回信嘲讽他，“你一定是位英语老师～”。这看似 也许是现在再平常不过的日常用语。也许是我要求正式的书面语这要求过分了～ My Accounting students had to use American Accounting texts, severely abridged, that scored between 11 and 20 on the Gunning Fog Index. I ended up teaching content, in English, with disguised, and Accounting specific, English training. 我教的会计班的学生用的教材都是美国的，里面有许多缩写，迷雾指数(可阅读性)在11— 20 。于是我停止了会计专业课的教学，并开始给学生补习英语。 If Tom had taught at the university level, he would have mentioned the need for all university graduates to pass CET-4 to get a degree. This dubious test is a waste of time for almost all majors. 如果Tom接受的是大学层次的英语教学，那他一定会提到所有学生毕业前都要过英语四级。 这不靠谱的英语测试对几乎所有专业的学生就是浪费时间。 If a student is interested and self motivated, the student will learn English. Most are not and most don't. 如果一个学生喜欢学习(英语)而且主观能动性很强，那他一定会认真学好英语。但实际情 况是大多数学生并不是这样的。 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael Djon wrote: Sep 1st 2011 6:08 GMT I've no direct experience of Chinese, let alone English, language teaching in China but the account related to my Intensive Introductory Mandarin course by someone who had studied there for a summer gave a far better impression of teaching at the Beijing Yuyan Xueyuan than Tom's. Perhaps increased demand for Chinese instruction since then (early 90s) has exceeded the supply of decent teachers. 我没有在中国的直接经验，更别说英语，关于中国的语言教学，上面这个介绍让我觉得焦虑， 我想介绍一下一些人在北京语言学院学习一个夏天普通话课程的感受，这些课程给他们留下 的印象远比汤姆的的印象好很多。可能对汉语教学日益增加的需求已经超过了(自90年代初) 以来那些优秀老师所能提供的。 sweatshop fan wrote: Sep 1st 2011 9:27 GMT Just wanted to add that yes, rural literacy of Chinese is of course far worse than authorities say, because their tests for literacy are too simple. Then again, rural Mandarin speaking isn't great in a lot of areas either, it really depends on how rural and how poor, and how different their native language is from standard Mandarin. 只是想补充的是，中国农村人的文化当然是远远差于当局说的，因为他们对文化的测试过于 简单。话又说回来，农村很多地区不说普通话，它实际上取决于当地农村实际怎样和有多穷， 以及他们的母语与普通话的差别有多大。 Chosenone wrote: Sep 2nd 2011 12:49 GMT Ref.: Rote learning - all students up to the bachelor degree learn by rote and by copying in South East Asia. That's just the way it is and you and I won't change it. My credentials: I have taught for one year in China and several years in Thailand at the university level. I now live in Bangkok. I am an expert in teaching and learning. 参考文献:死记硬背的学习方式 - 在东南亚所有的学生直到学士学位都是死记硬背。事情是 这样的，你和我都不会改变它。 我的凭据:我曾在中国的大学里教过一年，在泰国的大学里教过几年。我现在居住在曼谷。 我是教育和学习的专家。 ginmartini wrote: Sep 4th 2011 5:16 GMT Reading a text aloud is a great way to learn and improve a second language, although it should be mixed in with conversation practice (although if you're learning Chinese in China you can get practice on the street). I don't think that Chinese students do enough reading aloud when they learn English; they read to themselves. 大声朗读课本是一个伟大的方式来学习和提高第二语言，但它应该与会话练习混合(但如果 你在中国学习中文，您可以在街道上得到练习)。我认为中国学生在学习英语时没有大声朗读， 他们是在读给自己听。 ZacRob wrote: Sep 14th 2011 10:20 GMT This seems interesting in light of the poor reputation of American education on the world stage. Although America may lack the same prowess as several other countries in fields like engineering and math, the literacy rate in China is barely in the top half of the world, and certainly among the lowest of any remotely developed country. 这似乎对在世界舞台上的声誉不佳的美国教育是有兴趣。虽然美国可能在和数学等领域 中较其他几个国家弱一些，在中国的识字率仅仅是在世界最高率的一半，当然远远低于任何 发达国家。 西野乔梓 wrote: Sep 13th 2011 5:44 GMT I am a college student from China.It's true that a growing number of Chinese people are learning English for different purpose.Among those,I think that we want to know more about the world should be the basic reason.It's helpful to us to communicate with each other.In addition,it's true that more and more foreigners are learning Chinese around the world. 我是来之中国的一个大学生，越来越多的中国人由于不同目的而在学习英语.在他们之中，我 认为我们想知道更多基本的世界情况.这样对我们互相沟通有帮助.此外，这是一个真实的情 况那就是越来越多的外国人在世界各地学习中文。 badminton-lover wrote: Sep 17th 2011 4:28 GMT In my opinion,large of Chinese learn English are uesless. 在我看来，中国人学习英语是无用的。 ChinaRiseWestFall wrote: Sep 24th 2011 3:09 GMT How many Chinese learners in UK and USA? I would say stupid westerners will NEVER be able to master Chinese well due to the complexity of this extraordinary language and your low IQ 在英国和美国有多少中国的学习者, 我想说的愚蠢的西方人将永远无法掌握中国以及这个非同寻常的复杂的语言，你们是低智商。 ChinaRiseWestFall wrote: Sep 24th 2011 4:57 GMT kommonsenses Yeah, I'm not Chinese, I'm retarded, red-neck, mother-fucker American. 是啊，我不是中国人，我弱智，红脖子，笨蛋母亲是美国人。 原创翻译 龙腾网 翻译:Jonathan+Michael BurkeanPluralist wrote: Sep 25th 2011 10:09 GMT I've taught in Shenzhen for three years and have worked in a different school each year. I'll grant that Shenzhen probably has the best English program in all of China, but my experience is completely different from the bloggers and entirely positive. 我在深圳任教三年，每年在不同的学校工作。我在深圳市教授的大概是全中国最好的英语课 程，但我的经历和这位博客是完全不同的，完全积极的。 ashbird wrote: Sep 4th 2011 10:52 GMT The issue a few commenters observed, i.e., rote-learn the hell out of everything, is spot on. 一些评论者指出的问题，死记硬背的学习，地狱可以产生一切，这里就是现场。 has been memorized or to be memorized is an anathema in that system. R7nMaYV8AJ wrote: Sep 1st 2011 7:01 GMT 300 million English learners sounds plausible. How many get beyond the "How are you?" "I'm fine, thank you and you?" phase is harder to measure. I'd be willing to bet it's getting a lot better though, parents in the big cities are starting to spend a lot more on English education and China is the big new market for TEFL teachers. Wages haven't started to compete with Japan/Korea/Taiwan yet but the gap is narrowing from what I've heard. 3亿的英语学习者听起来似是而非。有多少人的水平可以超越这句“你好吗,”“我很好，谢 谢你，你呢,”所处的阶段是难以检测的。我敢打赌，他们是越来越好了，虽然，在大城市 的父母都开始把钱花在英语教育上面和对英语老师是需求在中国是一个很大的市场。工资还 没有开始与日本/韩国/台湾的竞争，但是我听说这个差距正在缩小。