中国当代作家深度访谈 迟子建 生命尊严最重要

中国当代作家深度访谈 迟子建 生命尊严最重要 她来自于中国最北端的北极村，她的文字从自然中缓缓流淌。她也在《额尔古纳河右岸》等作品中，敲响警钟。她如何承担苦难,什么是她的恐惧和幸福,她如何面对死亡,本届茅盾文学奖得主迟子建向读者敞开心扉。 从国际台坐上出租车，花了两个小时的车程来到迟子建在怀柔开会的地方。当我离开的时候，看着我们谈话时一桌两椅在窗下的剪影，突然有点想念在《世界上所有的夜晚》里，那一个地桌和半瓶旧酒，魔术师的妻子就是在那里和蒋百嫂聊着，喝着，直到夜凉如水。我很希望我们的谈话也可以是在一个夜晚，借着酒劲，不要录音，也许那样，还有更多的话。 不过已经要知足，如果对着镜头，两个女人也很难轻声细语地说着内心的感受。对于迟子建的采访我并没有当成采访，我觉得穿过巨大的城市，去见的是一个素未谋面但已经熟悉的朋友。她的作品很多，但当我们要向世界推荐一部作品，是哪部,她说:让他们看《额尔古纳河右岸》。 我不希望鲜活的少数民族变成遗址 在中俄边界的额尔古纳河右岸，居住着一群数百年前，自贝加尔湖畔迁徙而至，与驯鹿相依为命的鄂温克人，他们信奉萨满，逐驯鹿喜爱的食物而搬迁游猎，在享受大自然恩赐的同时也倍尝艰辛，他们在严寒、猛兽、瘟疫的侵害下求繁衍，在日寇的铁蹄，“文革”的阴云，乃至种种现代文明的挤压下求生存，这当中的故事就来自迟子建笔下的长篇小说《额尔古纳河右岸》。 记者:是不是提到生长环境，你从小就跟《额尔古纳河右岸》里写到的部落离得很近, 迟子建:嗯，很多读者可能认为我是完全凭借采访或者是什么，那个只不过是微乎其微的东西。其实这个作品对我来说，它意味着提供了一个巨大的背景，而这个背景我熟悉之极，因为我从小出生在那里，大自然一年四季风云变幻，我了然于心，并且与他们有相似的世界观。没有这个背景，我想我没法去写这样的小说。 记者:所以尤其以第一人称自述的时候，可能会更顺畅地把自己心里边的那些东西现出来。 迟子建:嗯，融入一些自己的情感。 记者:你去国外交流的时候，是不是也能看到一些很有共同处境的，就是所谓当地土著的那种人，整个地球上，很多个不同的角落，都有类似的这种事件在上演。 迟子建:当然了，写这个长篇也有这方面的触动，就是在澳大利亚，我曾经去了一个月，在达尔文市，它是北部很干旱的地区，当地的土著，政府把他们请下来，也是在一个部落里面，下山以后，政府也给了他们补贴，生活上有保障，可是他们把这些钱基本都挥霍到酒馆the provisions of Hunan province safety production supervision and management responsibilities > (Hunan Zhengban made 2013 No. 4), resolutely implement the safety production of the party with responsibility, a pair of responsibility. "Two is issued safety production administration and inspection to promote the responsibilities bear safety production supervision departments strictly and effectively assumed responsibility. The three is the establishment of enterprise production safety hidden With self correction self reporting system, promote the enterprises to implement the main responsibility for production safety. The four is the introduction of strengthening county safety production supervision ability construction work, promote safe production responsibility to the grassroots. 3, strict accountability and target management. Adhere to the "who is in charge, who is responsible for the pipe industry must pipes, pipe production and management must control safety management business must be safe" principle, the implementation of safe production supervision and stagnation to cure. "The leadership responsible system. Production safety of key towns, key enterprises and key problems, by the township government and the Department responsible for the stagnation led the lump sum, to tackle tough. To further increase the production safety index assessment, strict implementation of safe production of "one vote veto" award and recognition system, strengthen production safety incentive mechanism (four). Adhere to the political principles against unwholesome tendencies existence of the problem is not strict internal supervision. Over the years, the global leadership team members do not have any illegal and other bad records, but there are still not strict, the implementation does not survive the problem. A few leading cadres not strictly in accordance with the county Party committee, county government On strengthening style construction requirements and style construction safety supervision system of "ten prohibitions", to solve the people most concerned, the most direct, the most realistic problem of production safety as the starting point and goal of all work, to strengthen internal supervision on the way, in the perfect power control mechanism on "let things drift", get free in the political norms of leading cadres, some involving major principle problems of ambiguous attitude, major issues issues of right and wrong, it cannot stand up bravely, face to face, resolute struggle and discredit the views of the party in 2012. The style of the big consolidation activities, cadres and workers 6 people were 和赌场了。我每天晚上去海边散步，在海边公园里就看到那些土著，他们肤色黝黑，胳膊特别的细，但是每个人无论男女都是鼓着肚子。 记者:肚子鼓鼓的, 迟子建:对，很有意思，他们有的乞讨，有的在那儿卖画，整个的精神状态不是一个鲜活的生命的那种状态，是一种颓废的，向下的，糜烂的那种生活状态，我特别痛心。我觉得这不应该是他们的生活。是什么让他们变得没有尊严,因为我觉得生命尊严是最重要的，我想主要就是改变了他们的生活方式，融入了他们不该融入的生活当中，他们才会产生这种情态。 比如说，2005年我曾经和刘恒去爱荷华三个月。后半个月，写作中心组织作家们旅行，领我们去密西西比河畔。有一天他们兴致勃勃地说，今天去山里，去看印第安人的遗址，我还挺兴奋，我说好，今天可以看到印第安的遗址。结果我们爬山，在密西西比河畔的一个山里，走了很久，他们指着山崖畔的几块很小很小的石片告诉我们，那就是印第安人的遗址。现在想来，其实并不可笑，就是说，我不希望一个文明社会把一个鲜活的少数民族，或者被称为异族的人，不管怎么称谓，把这样一群民族的人，最后只剩下遗址，而且这个遗址已经萎缩到几块石片，这是可悲的，这不是人类文明的进程，我觉得这是野蛮的行为。 90岁的时候写一篇文字纪念今天 迟子建经常用自述的方式来展开故事，在小说《额尔古纳河右岸》当中，讲述者是这个民族当中最后一位酋长的女人，在一个清晨，她是这样开始讲述的: “我是雨和雪的老熟人了，我有90岁了，雨雪看老了我，我也把它们给看老了，如今夏季的雨越来越稀疏，冬季的雪也逐年稀薄了，它们就像我身下的已经磨得脱了毛的狍皮褥子，那些浓密的绒毛都随风而逝了，留下的是岁月的累累瘢痕，坐在这样的褥子上，我就像守着一片碱场的猎手，可我等来的不是那些竖着美丽犄角的鹿，而是裹挟着沙尘的狂风。” 记者:我想象的是你90岁的时候，也看着雨和雪。 迟子建:你这样说，我特别开心，希望有幸到那个年龄。 记者:到那时，一天讲一个长长的故事。 迟子建:到了90岁，思维如果不是很迟钝，我肯定也没有精力写《额尔古纳河右岸》这样的长篇。那我借你吉言，我真是可以，哪怕写一篇散文，我在那一年，我要纪念一下，纪念你今天说的话，希望你那个时候还能看见。(笑) 记者:我一定好好活着，等着那一天。 迟子建:没问题的。 the provisions of Hunan province safety production supervision and management responsibilities > (Hunan Zhengban made 2013 No. 4), resolutely implement the safety production of the party with responsibility, a pair of responsibility. "Two is issued safety production administration and inspection to promote the responsibilities bear safety production supervision departments strictly and effectively assumed responsibility. The three is the establishment of enterprise production safety hidden With self correction self reporting system, promote the enterprises to implement the main responsibility for production safety. The four is the introduction of strengthening county safety production supervision ability construction work, promote safe production responsibility to the grassroots. 3, strict accountability and target management. Adhere to the "who is in charge, who is responsible for the pipe industry must pipes, pipe production and management must control safety management business must be safe" principle, the implementation of safe production supervision and stagnation to cure. "The leadership responsible system. Production safety of key towns, key enterprises and key problems, by the township government and the Department responsible for the stagnation led the lump sum, to tackle tough. To further increase the production safety index assessment, strict implementation of safe production of "one vote veto" award and recognition system, strengthen production safety incentive mechanism (four). Adhere to the political principles against unwholesome tendencies existence of the problem is not strict internal supervision. Over the years, the global leadership team members do not have any illegal and other bad records, but there are still not strict, the implementation does not survive the problem. A few leading cadres not strictly in accordance with the county Party committee, county government On strengthening style construction requirements and style construction safety supervision system of "ten prohibitions", to solve the people most concerned, the most direct, the most realistic problem of production safety as the starting point and goal of all work, to strengthen internal supervision on the way, in the perfect power control mechanism on "let things drift", get free in the political norms of leading cadres, some involving major principle problems of ambiguous attitude, major issues issues of right and wrong, it cannot stand up bravely, face to face, resolute struggle and discredit the views of the party in 2012. The style of the big consolidation activities, cadres and workers 6 people were 记者:不管是长是短，写下来的东西就是生命里特别瑰丽的一部分，但是我看到你书里描写的那些小人物，其实可能他们跟作家还不一样，他们经历的那种东西，他们甚至没有话语权，他们想释怀的方式也很难，比如像蒋百嫂这样的人，在生活里，在小说里都有，像这样的人，当他们遇到苦难，去面对生活，你觉得他们应该怎么样, 迟子建:我确实写了很多小人物，你提到的蒋百嫂在《世界上所有的夜晚》里，可能她应该是最出彩的一个人，我觉得她的痛苦，她那种内心压抑的东西，失去丈夫又不敢说出真情，心里埋藏着一个惊天秘密，而这秘密背后有着罪恶的交易，这是大痛～ 飞出作品的蝴蝶 小说《世界上所有的夜晚》中，主人公的爱人，也就是文中所提到的魔术师因为车祸离开人世，而另一个人物蒋百嫂，她的老公被矿难夺去生命后，出于种种原因却无法将死亡的事实公之于众。蒋百嫂只能将他的尸体藏在冰柜里。这个女性角色，与迟子建的心灵交汇可谓最深。 记者:写作不光是为作家自己来疗伤，或者梳理自己，也是给这个社会，或者把伤口露出来，或者让一部分人看到这个，知道什么是这个社会应该重视的、解决的东西。《世界上所有的夜晚》一开始带来的肯定都是比较揪心的东西，一点一点化解，本身他的职业跟魔术有关系。我觉得如果从剃须刀的盒子里变出一只蝴蝶，理论上也可以，但是那个其实更像一个超现实的东西。我看到那儿的时候，心里没法形容。是突然一震，因为整个的感觉都很真实，你活在一个非常现实的世界里，最后却有这样一个结局。那个结局是你在写着写着找到的，还是最开始你就觉得，一定要有这样一个有点魔幻的东西, 迟子建:我从开始就有这种意向，当然我没跟媒体说，这是一个事实。我爱人去世以后，我确实保留着他的剃须刀盒，是一个很大的，像小说中描写的那种黑盒子，那里还有他的胡须。 记者:其实女孩对剃须刀也都不会很陌生，大家有男朋友什么的，如果以前我看见里面有他的胡楂儿，我会很不高兴，但是你有一个描述，让我觉得，突然就变得不一样了，就是那个是连通着它的血液的。 迟子建:是。 记者:会让人在心里有别样的感觉。 迟子建:胡须还残存着他的血液，让我觉得他还有呼吸。 记者:所以就是一种，他就不仅仅是烙印了，就相当于他还在一样。 迟子建:是的。他去世刚好八年了，我有的时候会打开那个盒子，觉得挺奇妙，我老觉得我打开的一瞬那里面会有变化，所以我很自然地写到了这样的结尾，我真的觉得会有一只the provisions of Hunan province safety production supervision and management responsibilities > (Hunan Zhengban made 2013 No. 4), resolutely implement the safety production of the party with responsibility, a pair of responsibility. "Two is issued safety production administration and inspection to promote the responsibilities bear safety production supervision departments strictly and effectively assumed responsibility. The three is the establishment of enterprise production safety hidden With self correction self reporting system, promote the enterprises to implement the main responsibility for production safety. The four is the introduction of strengthening county safety production supervision ability construction work, promote safe production responsibility to the grassroots. 3, strict accountability and target management. Adhere to the "who is in charge, who is responsible for the pipe industry must pipes, pipe production and management must control safety management business must be safe" principle, the implementation of safe production supervision and stagnation to cure. "The leadership responsible system. Production safety of key towns, key enterprises and key problems, by the township government and the Department responsible for the stagnation led the lump sum, to tackle tough. To further increase the production safety index assessment, strict implementation of safe production of "one vote veto" award and recognition system, strengthen production safety incentive mechanism (four). Adhere to the political principles against unwholesome tendencies existence of the problem is not strict internal supervision. Over the years, the global leadership team members do not have any illegal and other bad records, but there are still not strict, the implementation does not survive the problem. A few leading cadres not strictly in accordance with the county Party committee, county government On strengthening style construction requirements and style construction safety supervision system of "ten prohibitions", to solve the people most concerned, the most direct, the most realistic problem of production safety as the starting point and goal of all work, to strengthen internal supervision on the way, in the perfect power control mechanism on "let things drift", get free in the political norms of leading cadres, some involving major principle problems of ambiguous attitude, major issues issues of right and wrong, it cannot stand up bravely, face to face, resolute struggle and discredit the views of the party in 2012. The style of the big consolidation activities, cadres and workers 6 people were 蝴蝶飞出来。我小的时候去森林里捉蝴蝶，会把捉来的蝴蝶放到一个药盒里。你可能不知道，那时的山村医生，开有一种叫山楂丸的药，那是最好吃的。 记者:这么大的一个吧。 迟子建:对，大山楂的样子。 记者:现在我们也有人吃。 迟子建:那时候我最开心的就是，能上卫生所开一盒山楂丸吃，山楂丸的药盒就是方方的，那药盒就跟剃须刀的盒子一般大，我们捉了蝴蝶，就把它放到那里面，所以我会有这种生活上的经验。你把那个剃须刀取出来，剩下的空盒子里，别说一只蝴蝶，十只都能放得进去，那么我会想，我期待着一种奇迹，那就是蝴蝶。从开始写，就有这种想法，所以有人说我可能是写到最后，情不自禁让它飞翔出来，也不完全是，这是有生活基础的。 记者:这样的情景点在最后，你有没有觉得，看过整篇文章，忧心的人，真会有种舒解的感觉, 迟子建:与其说是安慰那个作品的女主人公，说蝴蝶绕着她飞了一圈，落到她无名指上;不如说从一个写作者来讲，我更希望是告慰已去的人，就是说这样的盒子里还可以有蝴蝶出现，这个可能是更重要的。 有一片人间的叶子飘落 记者:接下来的问题你可以不答。我每次问这个问题都特别不好意思。有没有想过希望以什么样的方式死去, 迟子建:没想过。 记者:如果可以选择的话, 迟子建:死亡是不可以选择的，我倒是希望像你所说，到我90岁的时候，写完雨和雪，一个老太太围着火炉，喝上一杯酒，然后没了，那当然最幸福了。 记者:那是最幸福的。 迟子建:对。当然很多东西，这是不可预想的。你们干吗要问大家的死亡呢, 记者:因为它让人恐惧。太多的作家都在写死亡，有各种各样的方式，在小说里面的很多。但是后来我发现其实小说里的设计真的是小说里的设计。我希望知道大家真正面对它的感觉。 迟子建:别人怎么回答，怎么去死, the provisions of Hunan province safety production supervision and management responsibilities > (Hunan Zhengban made 2013 No. 4), resolutely implement the safety production of the party with responsibility, a pair of responsibility. "Two is issued safety production administration and inspection to promote the responsibilities bear safety production supervision departments strictly and effectively assumed responsibility. The three is the establishment of enterprise production safety hidden With self correction self reporting system, promote the enterprises to implement the main responsibility for production safety. The four is the introduction of strengthening county safety production supervision ability construction work, promote safe production responsibility to the grassroots. 3, strict accountability and target management. Adhere to the "who is in charge, who is responsible for the pipe industry must pipes, pipe production and management must control safety management business must be safe" principle, the implementation of safe production supervision and stagnation to cure. "The leadership responsible system. Production safety of key towns, key enterprises and key problems, by the township government and the Department responsible for the stagnation led the lump sum, to tackle tough. To further increase the production safety index assessment, strict implementation of safe production of "one vote veto" award and recognition system, strengthen production safety incentive mechanism (four). Adhere to the political principles against unwholesome tendencies existence of the problem is not strict internal supervision. Over the years, the global leadership team members do not have any illegal and other bad records, but there are still not strict, the implementation does not survive the problem. A few leading cadres not strictly in accordance with the county Party committee, county government On strengthening style construction requirements and style construction safety supervision system of "ten prohibitions", to solve the people most concerned, the most direct, the most realistic problem of production safety as the starting point and goal of all work, to strengthen internal supervision on the way, in the perfect power control mechanism on "let things drift", get free in the political norms of leading cadres, some involving major principle problems of ambiguous attitude, major issues issues of right and wrong, it cannot stand up bravely, face to face, resolute struggle and discredit the views of the party in 2012. The style of the big consolidation activities, cadres and workers 6 people were 记者:张贤亮说他要自杀，因为他觉得他已经非常成功了，他什么苦难都受过了。 迟子建:王安忆呢, 记者:王安忆好像还是希望一个很平和的。 迟子建:像我这样90岁, 记者:她没提多大，但很平和。韩少功说，一定要突然，不要给别人留麻烦，比如说车祸什么的。 迟子建:我不这样想，我觉得，因为我承受了我丈夫车祸去世的这种巨大的心理压力和灾难，对死者那可能是一个瞬间，他们无知无觉，但是对于他的亲属和后人，这种忧伤是无尽的。所以从这个意义上，我愿意活到老得让人都烦，我自己都烦，就是80岁其实都足够了。 就是活到了，我把我要写的都写了，我要表达的都表达了，而我觉得我的空间拓展到了我无法再拓展的那个边界，或者是说，我到了一个我在写作上仍然无限渴望还要写，可是我的体力又不支的那个年龄，但是呢，我还能喝一杯酒，老眼昏花地看着窗外的树。这个时候你没了，那就是很自然的，你回归自然当中，不会给别人带来什么痛苦。也许窗外的树木和飞鸟会觉得，啊，有一片人间的叶子飘落了，这就很好。但这是可遇不可求的。 记者:向往。很难了。 迟子建:对，希望上苍怜惜我承受过的苦痛，给我这样一个不让别人痛苦，自己也不痛苦的结局，当然这是最理想的。 记者:我记得阿来说其实一个祥和的死去，也是一个回馈。 迟子建:对，对，我觉得他说得很好。 当代作家深度访谈栏目由中国国际广播电台、中国作家协会和本报共同主办。周日19时至20时在中国国际广播电台环球资讯广播(FM90.5)《环球名人坊》播出。 迟子建，黑龙江省作家协会副主席，一级作家。1964年出生于漠河。1984年毕业于大兴安岭师范学校，1987年入北京师范大学与鲁迅文学院联办的研究生班学习。1990年毕业后到黑龙江省作家协会工作至今。 2008年获第七届茅盾文学奖的《额尔古纳河右岸》，是第一部描述东北少数民族鄂温克人生存现状及百年沧桑的长篇小说。作家以年届九旬的鄂温克族最后一位酋长女人的自述口吻，讲述了这个弱小民族顽强的抗争和优美的爱情。小说语言精妙，以简约之美写活了一群鲜为人知、有血有肉的鄂温克人。小说以小见大，以一曲对弱小民族的挽歌，写出了人类历史进程中的悲哀，其文学主题具有史诗品格与世界意义。 the provisions of Hunan province safety production supervision and management responsibilities > (Hunan Zhengban made 2013 No. 4), resolutely implement the safety production of the party with responsibility, a pair of responsibility. "Two is issued safety production administration and inspection to promote the responsibilities bear safety production supervision departments strictly and effectively assumed responsibility. The three is the establishment of enterprise production safety hidden With self correction self reporting system, promote the enterprises to implement the main responsibility for production safety. The four is the introduction of strengthening county safety production supervision ability construction work, promote safe production responsibility to the grassroots. 3, strict accountability and target management. Adhere to the "who is in charge, who is responsible for the pipe industry must pipes, pipe production and management must control safety management business must be safe" principle, the implementation of safe production supervision and stagnation to cure. "The leadership responsible system. Production safety of key towns, key enterprises and key problems, by the township government and the Department responsible for the stagnation led the lump sum, to tackle tough. To further increase the production safety index assessment, strict implementation of safe production of "one vote veto" award and recognition system, strengthen production safety incentive mechanism (four). Adhere to the political principles against unwholesome tendencies existence of the problem is not strict internal supervision. Over the years, the global leadership team members do not have any illegal and other bad records, but there are still not strict, the implementation does not survive the problem. A few leading cadres not strictly in accordance with the county Party committee, county government On strengthening style construction requirements and style construction safety supervision system of "ten prohibitions", to solve the people most concerned, the most direct, the most realistic problem of production safety as the starting point and goal of all work, to strengthen internal supervision on the way, in the perfect power control mechanism on "let things drift", get free in the political norms of leading cadres, some involving major principle problems of ambiguous attitude, major issues issues of right and wrong, it cannot stand up bravely, face to face, resolute struggle and discredit the views of the party in 2012. The style of the big consolidation activities, cadres and workers 6 people were